Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Peter Smith — Tue, 02 Sep 2008 16:42:38 GMT

Yeah, I'm definitely in the minority on Zelda 2. And a lot of other things. :)

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Roto13 — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 22:14:24 GMT

Well of course Zelda 2 felt different, most of the action took place as a side scroller. :P And that kind of illustrates the point that if you change things too much, it doesn't feel like the same series any more. A lot of fans don't like Zelda 2 because it's more like Metroid than Zelda 1. (I personally don't hate it, but I would rather play pretty much any other Zelda.) Still, there is a need to change things up to avoid things from getting stale. At the risk of repeating myself, this is what Nintendo realizes and tried to do something with each new entry to make it feel more distinctive from a gameplay standpoint, while still keeping the charm of the basic Zelda series. Link to the Past had the alternate worlds, Ocarina of Time was 3D (which obviously isn't a big deal any more, but it was definitely a huge change for the series at the time) and time travel, Majora's Mask had a much darker tone and the focus on the daily lives of the inhabitants of Termina (not to mention the masks and various versions of Link that came with them), Wind Waker changed the whole art style and overhauled the world to turn it into an ocean, Oracle of Ages/Oracle of Seasons linked together to form one huge game, etc. etc.. Perhaps the first game in the series that didn't add much new was Twilight Princess (transformation had been done in Majora's Mask and the light/dark world had been done in Link to the Past to a greater extent) and even that managed to add something with the Wii controls, albeit not a whole lot. Plus, since Twilight Princess, there has been Phantom Hourglass, which controls entirely with the touch screen.

Anyway, I think Zelda is one of those series' that does a good job of mixing things up and giving each game it's own identity, and manage to make them consistently good, which is definitely a real accomplishment.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Peter Smith — Fri, 29 Aug 2008 16:33:53 GMT

Roto, your point is well taken, though I'm not sure I agree. I would say Zelda 1 and Zelda 2 feel a lot more different from each other and the rest of the series than any game since. It's always a tough question of how much a franchise title can innovate before it compromises what made its franchise distinctive in the first place. Maybe my preference for the first two games in the series is biasing me on that score.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Roto13 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 18:36:34 GMT

You can say pretty much every series has been structurally the same forever. Hell, Zelda is one of the few games that changes a LOT between games. Phantom Hourglass, Wind Waker, Ocarina of Time, Majoras Mask, they all feel really different. Sure, if you boil it down to it's simplest form, they're all based on solving puzzles in dungeons and collecting equipment and important items, but that's because that's what Zelda IS. Zelda is one of the few series' that doesn't need any serious overhauls to feel fresh, because that happens in every entry in the series. (Except maybe Twilight Princess.)

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Peter Smith — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 17:01:03 GMT

Man, they're all like the previous Zeldas... the series has been structurally the same more or less since Link to the Past. Which is not to deny the cool parts of Majora's Mask and Wind Waker and so forth, but I really miss the non-linearity and fast pace of Zelda 1 and 2.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Roto13 — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:52:49 GMT

They release one Zelda that's a lot like a previous Zelda and all of a sudden the series is stale?

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Demaar — Thu, 28 Aug 2008 14:32:49 GMT

I don't think Zelda needs to disappear either, it just needs a VERY HARD reset.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Peter Smith — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:57:24 GMT

Man, if any Nintendo franchise needs to go, it's Zelda. Now that shit is getting old.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

philodygmn — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:38:17 GMT

I don't think anyone expects it to be good for Nintendo to retire a money tar-baby like Mario is. I mean, I always thought whatever makes companies the most money is best for society /sarcasm

I absolutely do think Mario can -- and should -- be pidgeonholed as a storybook character. Him and Zelda and Sonic, the lot of them. They worked in the 1980s because it was parents and family and go-go money and hegemony and the next generation of the "best" country in the world, all of which is, if you'll notice, the hubristic, self-righteous attitude that's dragged this generation's future into the state of our previous two generation's financial sights.

I think it's entirely valid to condemn one-dimensional, heroic characters and equally vapid premises as storybooks writ "multimedia".

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Roto13 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 15:10:15 GMT

Amber, I totally agree with your first paragraph. Why would anyone want to end a series of games that's consistently good and always has something to feel fresh? It's not like the Sonic series, where he's just a cash cow and release dates are more important than effort. It's not like Mega Man, where each game is more like an expansion pack of the last game.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Amber Ahlborn — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 13:33:07 GMT

Well, this is new to me. I never heard any calls to have Mario fully retire before. What a stupid idea. Nintendo is very good at taking care of their franchises. If the Super Mario series really starts slipping, then it might be time for an extended break. Why would Nintendo retire one of their most popular and lucrative franchises? Even Sunshine was not a bad game.

All I've heard before were calls to give the Mario spin offs a rest, like Mario Party and the sports games. Honestly, I don't see a reason to do that either. Mario is a mascot character. Lending his presence to smaller games that wouldn't otherwise have a recognizable presence is part of his job.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

LBD "Nytetrayn" — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 05:29:16 GMT

Super Mario Galaxy, all things considered, was probably pretty close to a Miyamoto-less Mario. Sure, Miyamoto did have input, as he does in just about everything Nintendo. But the story came from the game's director (I think that was his role), and a lot of the nostalgic aspects came from the staff.

Meanwhile, Miyamoto brought us Sunshine.

The difference between Sonic and Mario is quite obvious: Mario isn't rushed. Literally. Sonic Unleashed is looking shakey to those who have played it, and in spite of SEGA saying they'll take as long as needed to get it right, no one believes they're going to pass on the holiday rush, even in spite of many other games through 2008 doing just fine without that mess.

And I wouldn't exactly pigeonhole Mario as a "storybook role model," either; he's admittedly not the deepest character in the world, relying more on the player's whims to make him as innocent or as mischievious as they want him to be. And as the (mostly) silent protagonist, he goes along for the ride.

Incidently, can't help but notice that the blog in question was a MSN/Microsoft one. Hmmm...

(Yeah, I know, it's probably nothing.)

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

AbsolutelyNot — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 04:48:32 GMT

I think the idea is that Mario should quit while he's ahead. How long does he have before he goes the way of Sonic with non-stop terrible games? And what about a Miyamoto-less Mario? Would that ever be acceptable?

Of course, if we are looking at Sonic then we have to recognize that despite his track record, there are still people that get excited every time Sega says they are going to turn around and make the right choices. Does every franchise have fans that are eternal optimists?

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

philodygmn — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 04:19:23 GMT

I think Mario Galax was one of the best, most fun games ever, but I also think Mario's role was immaterial and that a less froofy premise and character are long overdue. I for one am sick to death of storybook "role model" crap I grew up having foisted on me and having myself attempted to be crammed into the perfect little box they represented, and I think kids would do better without that kind of thing to begin with.

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Demaar — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 03:15:56 GMT

Indeed, Mario is still new to a new generation of gamers. The only ones that want to see him go are people who've already loved him all they could. In which case, he's NOT FOR YOU anymore.

Though it probably wouldn't hurt if Nintendo didn't release a bajillion spin-offs every generation (Mario Sluggers being the latest).

re: Mario Will Not Retire. He Will Outlive Us All.

Roto13 — Wed, 27 Aug 2008 02:40:27 GMT

How can anyone want Mario to bow out when under a year ago he starred in one of the greatest video games ever made? He's not like Sonic, where he's just there because it'd be too sad to see him go. Mario games are still awesome.